Preamp recommendations?

[Deleted]

Hi all, I'm on the search for a pre amp that would be appropriate for a system I'm trying to put together and would welcome input from you all.  I'm planning on listening to digital on this setup.  Currently, I'm streaming amazon HD->bluesound node2i serving as wireless transport-> DAC (either my CIAudio VDA2 or Schiit bifrost)->Mark Levinson 23.5 -> Thiel CS3.6 speakers.  I'm waiting to get a tweeter back from a rebuild, but I anticipate my decision points to be:

1-how does the bluesound compare to RCA 
2-Would something like a Benchmark DAC HGC provide a noticeable improvement over my current setup
3-Would a good quality pre amp beat out the DAC+volume option

I'm personally rooting for the pre amp, but perhaps I'm just biased towards the boutique and vintage.  However, I recently compared my Cambridge Audio streamer vs Rotel pre amp going into my Rotel power amp, and felt the Rotel pair was the winner (while using the streamer as a streamer/DAC only).  I thought it would be redundant, but I gave the nod to the Rotel (maybe the impedance and voltage matching created a more synergistic sound, or something else entirely).  

I don't have too many requirements, but I would ideally like a remote with fine volume control, and maybe XLR/RCA dual outs for versatility with gain structure and connections.  Here are the specs on the power amp, and I'll add that I calculated the input impedance via RCA to be 2.8Vrms.  Feel free to tell me if I'm way overthinking all of this, thanks all!

ML23.5 specs:
Solid-state stereo power amplifier. Rated power output: 200Wpc continuous into 8 ohms (23dBW) with less than 0.1% THD, 400Wpc continuous into 4 ohms (23dBW) with less than 0.2% THD, both from 20Hz–20kHz, both channels driven. Damping factor: greater than 600 at 50Hz, 8 ohms (equivalent to an output impedance of 0.013 ohms). Frequency response: 4Hz–140kHz, —dB. Input impedance: 50k ohms shunted by 1.5nF. Voltage gain: 26dB (load not defined). Input sensitivity: 141mV for 1W output.

[Chris]

I use a Benchmark DAC2 HGC as my main DAC/Preamp for one of my systems. It's been a constant for several years and I consider it reference quality both in specs and sound. But time has moved on and even better products have arrived. For example, Benchmark's own HP4 preamp is even better wrt SINAD, etc. but at a $3,000 price point. But there are even more choices with the Topping Pre90 showing even better measurments at the incredible price of $599. You can research all of these at ASR. You may want to also consider a Passive Preamp such as the Channel Island PLC-1 which I am currently using with my combined Home Theater and Two Channel system.

If you are only using digital sources, the idea of a standalone preamp becomes moot. Some will disagree but the volume controls built into SOTA DACs today are now incredibly good and adding a preamp is just redundant.

The Blue Sound Node is a very good all-around solution for digital streaming. Its internal DACs are adequate, but one can improve things by using the digital output into a standalone DAC. You might start with some of the very good DACs for as little as one or two hundred dollars to see if you can hear a difference. A product such as the Topping D10 Balanced at $139 is pretty much state of the art.

[larrys]

It would be helpful to know what price range you're considering. Also, whether, and how much, will great specifications add to your enjoyment of your system. In my main system I have a Backert Labs Rhumba Extreme tube preamp and my primary source is a VPI Prime with a DS Audio DS-003 optical cartridge (Bluesound Node 2i is another source). The speakers are Magneplanar 3.7i's. None are subjects of objectivist worship. Kind of the antithesis of the ASR approach*, but, wow, do I love listening to that system!

The Backert Labs would seem to meet your requirements, as would the Rogue Audio RP-7. These would be worth checking out if they are in your price range.



*My favorite audio objectivist quote: “Yep, I remember seeing some of their old measurements and seeing how much better it sounded."

[Deleted]

Thanks Chris, insightful as always! I wasn't aware of the PLC-1 and have to admit that after reading up on it, I'm very curious to give it a try. I like my CIAudio DAC quite a bit, and having recently noticed some ground hum issues in another system has made me appreciate the ability to separate the power supply, which CI of course offers.

I prefer to buy made in USA when possible, though the HP4 is out of my price range. I'm still considering the DAC3 HGC, do you think have separate components like with the CI setup offers an advantage over the HGC, which is an all-in-one solution?

Glad my thought process on the blue sound was right, use it for the streaming capability only and let another DAC do the rest. I have to admit cutting the cord is pretty nice:) Thanks for the info!

[Deleted]

Larrys,
Thanks for the thoughts, you bring up a key point I'm going through right now- as a budding audio enthusiast, I've never worried much about specs until now, so as I learn more about gain structure, impedance, etc. am I taking all of it too seriously and need to remember to just trust my ears? I imagine it's natural to fixate on specs when you're trying to learn about it all.
Those are great looking pieces but out of my budget at the moment, I'd like to cap the system at 2k in whatever permutation of components that comes out to be. Great quote btw, I'll use it to keep my perspective in the specs vs ears debate!

[larrys]

Calvin - it wasn't clear if you had a target price, hence my first sentence. Focussing on the specs is a convenient approach, but specs on the vast majority of audio electronics are so good that they really don't well serve as discriminanda these days. Something like the Topping Pre90 would meet the basic requirements you listed but wouldn't offer much in terms of flexibility (i.e., switching between inputs). You describe yourself as a budding audiophile and we all used to be one of those. But it's always worthwhile thinking about the relative importance of immediate needs vs. long term goals as well as putting together a system where there is a good relative balance among the components. You said you were biased toward the boutique and vintage, and you also said that in your sonic comparison of with/without a preamp with won. Maybe it's worthwhile to consider some vintage or used boutique equipment. All things to think about as the journey continues. As audiophiles, we all live under the same sky, but we don't all have the same horizon.

[Deleted]

larrys,
I could definitely see how after a certain point of specsmanship, it might come down more to my personal preference than anything else, well said. I do like the vintage gear even though I think there's more financial risk involved, maybe some of the modern stuff out there still scratches the same itch though (usually the stuff absent screens, made in the US, etc.). Lots to explore for sure. Thanks for the support!

[jaweldon]

I have some advice and perhaps an offer. I have used the Thiel CS 3.6 with McCormack DNA amplification. A wonderful sounding, difficult to drive, landmark speaker IMO. One could certainly spends tons on electronics and not have "overspent" given the performance of the 3.6. Every change or upgrade I made in electronics was clearly presented by the 3.6es.



Before going to a tubed line-stage (Audio Research Ref 3), I was using the Audio Research LS9 solid state line-stage. If you are looking for a full preamp (with phono stage), then this might not be your ticket. However, if you are as stated, going digital, I found the LS9 to be really good. Somewhat, tube-like with very strong bass performance and good imaging. It was designed for ARC by Thad Early (I think) who had just left Krell. Worked very well with my Thiels and is rock solid in terms of reliability. My only caution is that it only reaches peak performance used in the BALANCED mode. Otherwise, no go IMO. If one uses a good set of balanced XLR cables, the voltage increase in balanced mode greatly improves dynamics, soundstage and retrieval of low level detail. Also, it responds well to the use of a high quality power cable. It has a remote control. Leave it on all of the time for the best sound. It is also a good impedance match for the Levinson 23.5.



arcdb.ws/model/LS9





The only reasonably priced SS preamp of that vintage that was "better" was the Adcom GFP 750 that was a Nelson Pass design. The reliability of those was not very good from what I have heard, although I have no direct experience in that regard.



So, if we can work it out, I can loan you my ARC LS9. That way you can know if it works for you or not. Good luck!