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Post by Chris on Aug 10, 2020 14:51:45 GMT -5
I am seeing a trend in reviews and owners of Hi-Fi equipment where they sing the praise of a component that has measurable and potentially audible distortion. It is also known that our ear/brain likes second harmonic distortion and compression.
So, my question is are you okay with listening/owning equipment that measures badly especially with poor distortion numbers? Have you changed your mind about a component that you thought sounded good but come to find out it has high distortion?
Or, you just don't care and if it sounds good it is good?
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Post by larrys on Aug 10, 2020 15:21:57 GMT -5
I voted. I'm the "Undecided" one. But not really because "I don't care either way". IF I thought that we truly knew how to measure all of the distortions that affect the sound of a component, I would have been in the "Yes" column. IF I thought that none of the distortion measurements that are currently available matter to the sound of a component, I would have been in the "No" column. I don't believe either obtain hence two big capital "IF"s and my "Undecided" vote.
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Post by thevinylrevivers on Aug 10, 2020 15:47:49 GMT -5
I do want my equipment to measure well, but I am kind of in Larry's camp. When I'm evaluating equipment, I'm listening first, and then checking out the specs afterwards. If I like how a product sounds, then good measurements will only reinforce what I heard. However, if I liked how something sounded, and the measurements don't back it up, I will still go with what I heard, rather than adhere to the specs.
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Post by speakertom on Aug 10, 2020 17:44:24 GMT -5
To me, it depends. If the distortion is very high even if it is "benign" 2nd order harmonic I have found it tends to mask the inner details of the instruments and voices that add the texture that gets you closer to the artist. Measurements can give you an idea of how the sound will be "tailored" but at the end of the day you have to listen. It depends on the music, your mood, and other intangibles that from day to day determine if you like the music that you hear. Through the years I have found that for my tastes, if measures very poorly it will probably sound poorly. It is also very difficult to hear the minuscule distortions that some people lose sleep over. A level of .01% THD will be impossible to hear unless all the distortion is high order like 7th or 9th order in which case in some circumstances it will be audible and annoying.
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Post by sailor on Aug 11, 2020 8:26:42 GMT -5
I would like to always trust my ears first. Unfortunately, it seems to be my nature to get a bit paranoid when I've read a negative in print. I immediately start doubting myself.
When I make a change to my system I first want to believe I improved things specifically if I spent money. I need to force myself to go back after a time and change back for a reality check. I still believe that once you get to a high level with your system things like temperature, atmospheric pressure, humidity, and one's own mood make more of a difference than a new cable or tube or cartridge.
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Post by Chris on Aug 16, 2020 13:44:27 GMT -5
To me, it depends. If the distortion is very high even if it is "benign" 2nd order harmonic I have found it tends to mask the inner details of the instruments and voices that add the texture that gets you closer to the artist. Measurements can give you an idea of how the sound will be "tailored" but at the end of the day you have to listen. It depends on the music, your mood, and other intangibles that from day to day determine if you like the music that you hear. Through the years I have found that for my tastes, if measures very poorly it will probably sound poorly. It is also very difficult to hear the minuscule distortions that some people lose sleep over. A level of .01% THD will be impossible to hear unless all the distortion is high order like 7th or 9th order in which case in some circumstances it will be audible and annoying. Tom, would you find these example measurements a cause for concern? |
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Post by speakertom on Aug 16, 2020 14:15:35 GMT -5
Chris, I see two scenarios here. The first is the distortion at full level is .5% but is primarily 3rd harmonic. It would probably be noticeable with a pure tone but perhaps not with complex music other than perhaps a slight reduction in definition as parts of the music would get stepped on by the distortion. Whether or not you liked the added harmonic structure more than the lessening of definition would depend on your preferences. Once you get to -3dB the same comments would be true with less of an impact caused by the distortion.
The second is the statement that peak levels would be accompanied by bursts of distortion. I would not consider the amount quoted at full scale to be "bursts". If you go beyond 0dB with any digital you will get true bursts of much higher and very objectionable distortion. However if you stay below that with the distortion levels quoted, I would not agree with the term bursts.
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Post by sailor on Aug 16, 2020 19:09:07 GMT -5
My problem with lab tests is they they have very little to do with reality. What we listen to is music. To me it makes since to make judgements based on what we hear when listening to the music
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Post by scotto on Aug 30, 2020 13:14:15 GMT -5
I'm with "Sailor". The choices for that vote left me feeling as though I would be "Pidgeon Holed", by choosing any of them. But the measurements "Chris", posted would be "At best", "Problematic", for me if found in one of my rigs!
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mark
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by mark on Sept 1, 2020 15:43:36 GMT -5
I just got a Puffin digital phono preamp and I was surprised to see among the various equalizations offered, a setting that adds several percent 2nd harmonic distortion to achieve a "tube" effect.
Apparently some people will pay for more distortion -- I can imagine someone reviewing an amp's specs saying "this thing has less than 0.01% thd across all frequencies and output power levels, what a piece of crap!"
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Post by larrys on Sept 1, 2020 17:03:23 GMT -5
I just got a Puffin digital phono preamp and I was surprised to see among the various equalizations offered, a setting that adds several percent 2nd harmonic distortion to achieve a "tube" effect. Apparently some people will pay for more distortion -- I can imagine someone reviewing an amp's specs saying "this thing has less than 0.01% thd across all frequencies and output power levels, what a piece of crap!" Have you tried it to see if you like it? |
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Post by speakertom on Sept 1, 2020 18:28:40 GMT -5
I have a piece I bought years ago called the Tube Head. It is a stereo line stage and has two 12AX7s. You can dial in the B+ level to create different levels of primarily 2nd order distortion. It is interesting but of no practical value.
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Dave R
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by Dave R on Jan 14, 2023 13:46:16 GMT -5
I just got off the treadmill and I'm puffin. I don't have a control to add in distortion, it just happens when the situation warrants it and what kind of distortion shows up could be anyone's guess. The fact that I'm tubby and not tubey may have something to do with it.
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